Jun 14, 2022·edited Jun 14, 2022Liked by Heather Havrilesky
I’m half wondering if this entire eloquent and vulnerable response wasn’t just the usual reflexive emotional work by a woman in response to a man in distress, and I’m gonna have to think about that first. Meanwhile, it was a good response to a letter that began well, had a good twist, drew me in, and then lost me at the part where women get him wrong because he’s too good to be true. The last time I said something similar about myself I was twenty years younger and being enabled by people who actually let me believe it. None of us are that good. And I definitely feel wary around anyone who allows themselves to say such things about themselves, including me. I have set my own alarm bells off many a time!
But maybe this letter was a good effort, a good start. PS- Please don’t become enraged. PPS- it’s telling that I wanted to say something but was frankly afraid to, and am now using dark humor to frame that.
Amazing letter + response. As a woman probably around LW's age, I will say that I've become resistant of men who openly tout their emotional intelligence and other wonderful sensitivities. It used to be the opposite, but after falling for a guy who was always mentioning how important integrity was to him, and then later finding out he was cheating on his girlfriend with me, I started to pay more attention. The kindest, most honest and emotional men were never the ones always talking about their kindness, honesty, and emotion. They just were. Or, if pressed, they'd say, "I try my best but I'm sure I could be better." So when I read that women are dismissive of LW because they don't believe he's real - my first thought was - there's something about his behavior that's coming across as disingenuous or not real, and it's not just how great he is ;) And if that's not true, he may be choosing women who genuinely prefer to date jerks (I have some friends who will openly admit to this). So *then* the question is - why?
Hmm, there is something that feels a little bit off about this whole situation.
I'm zeroing in on this key passage in the original letter, that women "disbelieve I am real. They think there must be a catch, and attempt to apply the same oversimplified and unambitious routines to me that they do to other men. Somewhat confusingly to me, they become agitated rather than excited when these routines don’t fit me."
LW BRO, I see that you are haunting the comments and feel the urge to reply again and again. I'm wondering if these women are getting agitated because of your communication style--the way you act and speak when you feel uncomfortable and a little bit defensive. Like, it's not really what you are saying but just that you are saying sooo much of it. It's a lot of words and arguments and "see my previous comments" to sort through.
I get it, I also am a person who says a lot of words! But sometimes if you say more and more and more, people reach a tipping point where they stop seeing it as a fun conversation, and start seeing it as an overwhelming amount of information.
In a worst-case scenario, this defensive overexplaining comes across as emotionally needy, attention seeking, or even controlling. Because of this, many people (many of whom are women) will back away from someone who is overexplaining themselves, because they're nervous about being emotionally and intellectually drained.
I'm NOT saying you are like this, or that you do these things!!! But you might be accidentally REMINDING people of other bad experiences they have had with other people. And sometimes just a teeny bit of reminding is all it takes to make people uncomfortable.
Women who have been bullied or drained by OTHER men who came before you--men who got what they wanted by arguing things to death and always having the last word--might be particularly likely to back away from that defensive overexplaining energy from a man, especially a man they are considering as a romantic partner.
I'm not trying to roast you or accuse you of anything, I'm just trying to sincerely offer helpful input based on your letter and comments. I want you to know that I have very close friends who are men and women, as well as nonbinary people, trans people, etc. I also work with autistic and ADHD teens and adults of every gender. So from my perspective, I don't think this is a gender issue at all, I think it's just a social skills issue that all humans have to learn.
Have you considered asking your close, trusted friends for some honest input? Like, ask them if there's anything you could do differently that would make people (men and women) feel more comfortable communicating with you?
I really like that you came back to respond - it’s brave to engage with so many strangers who suddenly have access to your most intimate thoughts and fears!
Just one thing popped out at me - I used to feel a lot like you in my 20s (I am a woman), and now I’ve come to realise that it came from moving abroad for studies into a very competitive, male-dominated environment, and also culturally very different from my home country.
I spent a lot of time moulding myself into what I thought was just right - the girl with extra food in her office, good listener, kind, but also smart and competent, but never proud of her smartness and competence, and also not scared to be vulnerable, but not so vulnerable it pressure on anyone else, blah blah! And then just couldn’t understand why men didn’t appreciate how perfect I was!
And honestly, I was just fine-tuning myself and my reactions to suit other people all the time, which can make you very rigid - subconsciously, you want other people to make the same effort for you. And then you’re not easy in your skin, and not accepting of others.
So I think you are probably a great guys, just - you don’t need to prove it all the time :-) And honestly, most people are not naturally aggressive and are creative - I would go so far as to say all people, all genders. The few that appear that way are probably battling some kind of pain. So to paraphrase other Polly advice - just be kind to yourself, allow your own needs and those of others!
Sorry about the long comment, but past me really relates to you. Also, if some of your fear is driven by a sense of “now or never” for finding the right person - don’t worry, it’ll work out!
You could be this guy I dated briefly. He would have described himself in similar terms. He was in his 50s, and I'm not sure he's specifically aware he's neurodivergent, but everything else tracks. Kind, vulnerable, good job, lots of friends, takes care of people, including his aging aunt and mother. Childhood trauma. Old-school hacker.
Our first date was phenomenal. He took me to a restaurant where he knew the owners, and asked them to bring out some fabulous dish which wasn't on the menu. He pulled out a bottle of organic wine which was made by friends of his. He asked me intelligent questions and listened. He took me home, gave me the boxed-up leftovers and a hug, and left.
Hallelujah!! A unicorn!
So what happened?
As I learned subsequently, there is a vast gulf between learning to feel one's feelings, and knowing how to regulate them. It's not possible to be a good and present partner to another person if you can't do BOTH.
What happened was, his aunt died. She was 92. She had severe dementia and had been declining physically for a decade. He loved his aunt and took fabulous attentive care of her for all that time.
His response to her death was as extreme as if it had been totally unexpected. He spiraled into a chaotic grief state which alarmed me. He had a history of depression, and a crash seemed imminent.
I asked him what he was doing to regulate. As in eating regularly, sleeping, seeing friends, seeing a therapist. I had just gotten out of a relationship with a man who had no room for both his feelings and mine, and I was not going to walk that path again.
He became extremely defensive and argued that he was "not my ex." He defended and defended and defended. He wouldn't let it go. For days.
He argued, Bro, in much the way you're doing here. Not knowing when it's time to take in what someone says, let them have their own feelings, and move on.
That was all I needed to know. Because what I was asking, in effect, was, "can you regulate your own feelings, in real time, well enough to be responsive to mine?"
Ok sorry but I can't tear myself away from this -- the one question I wish I had just asked Bro from the start is this: if a magical omniscient being presented itself in front of you and told you that the reason things didn't work out with women/men you've dated was actually NOT due to society/culture/expectations of men/their upbringing/past experiences and instead had to do with you, how would you feel? And if you had to guess, what would those reasons be?
When people break up with me, I usually try to get a good sense for why (and if I can't get a straight answer, I think about moments of tension in the relationship and what I might have done to cause them). You could say I look for reasons to blame myself and that isn't the healthiest behavior, BUT it has helped me understand what people I like value, where my (many!) flaws are, and what kinds of people I should probably steer clear of in the future.
I know you don't want to talk about your dating life anymore, and no need to respond to this. But I have a few friends whom I adore but also can see how they might be difficult to date quite clearly -- and yet, when they get broken up with, it is always the other person's fault/timing/anything but turning inward and reflecting.
Part of the whole deal with being a member of an oppressor class is that the oppressed have the right to talk shit about you. It may seem unfair. As a white person, I don't love when POC say [insert negative generalization about white people here] because I'm an individual, how can you make this generalization without thinking about meeee (please exempt me from this, because i'm better??) But part of growth is learning not to take things like that personally. Or, do take them personally, if you must. But then you have to sit with it and feel the pain of it without getting overwhelmed and lashing out.
Jun 14, 2022·edited Jun 14, 2022Liked by Heather Havrilesky
I’m not sure if this is allowed, but I am the writer of this letter. I wanted to respond publicly since you responded publicly. It seems unfair for only one of us to hide in anonymity, especially about a topic like this. Plus someone challenged me today to take frightening leaps ;-)
First, thank you for the incredibly thoughtful reply. Today, this letter is – as you say – exactly what I needed when I needed it. I had to clear my tears before composing this. Your ability to understand people from brief blocks of black-and-white prose is remarkable. Your advice is something I will cherish for a long time.
There may be other things that occur to me later, but I wanted to respond to a few things:
1. The point you raise about my insinuation that it’s the women who can’t see me and not anything wrong me. The spirit of this criticism is well-taken, and is something I thought about as I wrote the letter.
That said, I still oversimplified in my statement of the problem, ironically in a letter asking you to be less oversimplified…oof. I'm sorry for that. I certainly don’t think I’m perfect, and I don’t at all think these women are wrong to be highly skeptical.
I think you un-simplified my oversimplified explanation very well, so thank you for that.
I loved Heather’s response, but this line stood out for me: you’re ”hard to see clearly when you’re not leaping enough.” I’d love to hear more about this - what makes us hard to see when we’re not leaping enough? (Speaking as someone who’s been avoiding leaping for a while)
related-- a lot of things about man-woman relationships were clarified for me when I read the novel Detransition, Baby by Torrey Peters. in the book, the characters are very aware of how their genders are material to their relationships, and how certain relationship dynamics confirm or challenge the storytelling of one's gender (ex: one trans woman character seeks out toxic relationships with cis men bc she correctly identifies that as part of how femininity is constructed in our culture).
I'm wondering if these women "run away" from you because part of their storytelling about what it means to be a woman has to do with putting up with masculine bullshit, whether they'll admit it or not. in which case, I'm sorry! these women just haven't untaught themselves that aspect of relationships yet.
Women who don’t trust men got that way by being hurt, badly, multiple times, by men. And told that it was their fault. Read Am I The Asshole on Reddit to see story after story of a woman accepting abuse and still wondering if she is at fault.
Trying to be a good man sounds like an unquestionably good thing. But trying to look like a good anything can veer off into people-pleasing very easily. What’s wrong with people-pleasing is that it comes from a desire to appear a certain way to get a certain outcome (to get something good or to avoid something bad). So it is not authentic. It treats the other person as an object to extract things from, in a way.
It’s hard not to people-please if you grew up in a dysfunctional family. It feels vulnerable and dangerous. You almost have to people-please to succeed at work, especially in desirable fields. You risk criticism and misunderstanding if you step off the people-pleasing train. Most people need support to do it, like from a 12 step group where this is talked about and where authenticity is valued over outward success.
You have to give up the “do this to get that” thinking, which I have come to think of as the true “original sin.”
I could be wrong, but this is what I see as the block that might be getting in the way of authentic and lasting connection.
My response to the letter is that maybe the people you are dating don't actually want what you are selling, despite the fact they say they want it. This kind of goes back to Heather's point about our cultural fondness for strength.
I’m super curious what specifically these women have communicated to LW and what routines have led to the disappearances/agitation. Not that it’s my business, but it’s pretty rare to have that consistent level of insight into what exactly is tanking every relationship! Especially in that starting-out phase.
Quality men, like quality women, often find that being all you are dramatically shrinks your dating pool. Be patient. Ultimately it pays off.
I question whether negative or stereotypical portrayals of men or women are of import to people with loving hearts. You’re not “that guy” and the right woman for you will see through any societal debris. That Polly (HH) has called out “that guy” on occasion when specifically called for is not an attack on you or other great men that I can see.
I’m half wondering if this entire eloquent and vulnerable response wasn’t just the usual reflexive emotional work by a woman in response to a man in distress, and I’m gonna have to think about that first. Meanwhile, it was a good response to a letter that began well, had a good twist, drew me in, and then lost me at the part where women get him wrong because he’s too good to be true. The last time I said something similar about myself I was twenty years younger and being enabled by people who actually let me believe it. None of us are that good. And I definitely feel wary around anyone who allows themselves to say such things about themselves, including me. I have set my own alarm bells off many a time!
But maybe this letter was a good effort, a good start. PS- Please don’t become enraged. PPS- it’s telling that I wanted to say something but was frankly afraid to, and am now using dark humor to frame that.
Amazing letter + response. As a woman probably around LW's age, I will say that I've become resistant of men who openly tout their emotional intelligence and other wonderful sensitivities. It used to be the opposite, but after falling for a guy who was always mentioning how important integrity was to him, and then later finding out he was cheating on his girlfriend with me, I started to pay more attention. The kindest, most honest and emotional men were never the ones always talking about their kindness, honesty, and emotion. They just were. Or, if pressed, they'd say, "I try my best but I'm sure I could be better." So when I read that women are dismissive of LW because they don't believe he's real - my first thought was - there's something about his behavior that's coming across as disingenuous or not real, and it's not just how great he is ;) And if that's not true, he may be choosing women who genuinely prefer to date jerks (I have some friends who will openly admit to this). So *then* the question is - why?
Hmm, there is something that feels a little bit off about this whole situation.
I'm zeroing in on this key passage in the original letter, that women "disbelieve I am real. They think there must be a catch, and attempt to apply the same oversimplified and unambitious routines to me that they do to other men. Somewhat confusingly to me, they become agitated rather than excited when these routines don’t fit me."
LW BRO, I see that you are haunting the comments and feel the urge to reply again and again. I'm wondering if these women are getting agitated because of your communication style--the way you act and speak when you feel uncomfortable and a little bit defensive. Like, it's not really what you are saying but just that you are saying sooo much of it. It's a lot of words and arguments and "see my previous comments" to sort through.
I get it, I also am a person who says a lot of words! But sometimes if you say more and more and more, people reach a tipping point where they stop seeing it as a fun conversation, and start seeing it as an overwhelming amount of information.
In a worst-case scenario, this defensive overexplaining comes across as emotionally needy, attention seeking, or even controlling. Because of this, many people (many of whom are women) will back away from someone who is overexplaining themselves, because they're nervous about being emotionally and intellectually drained.
I'm NOT saying you are like this, or that you do these things!!! But you might be accidentally REMINDING people of other bad experiences they have had with other people. And sometimes just a teeny bit of reminding is all it takes to make people uncomfortable.
Women who have been bullied or drained by OTHER men who came before you--men who got what they wanted by arguing things to death and always having the last word--might be particularly likely to back away from that defensive overexplaining energy from a man, especially a man they are considering as a romantic partner.
I'm not trying to roast you or accuse you of anything, I'm just trying to sincerely offer helpful input based on your letter and comments. I want you to know that I have very close friends who are men and women, as well as nonbinary people, trans people, etc. I also work with autistic and ADHD teens and adults of every gender. So from my perspective, I don't think this is a gender issue at all, I think it's just a social skills issue that all humans have to learn.
Have you considered asking your close, trusted friends for some honest input? Like, ask them if there's anything you could do differently that would make people (men and women) feel more comfortable communicating with you?
Hi Polly and BRO,
I really like that you came back to respond - it’s brave to engage with so many strangers who suddenly have access to your most intimate thoughts and fears!
Just one thing popped out at me - I used to feel a lot like you in my 20s (I am a woman), and now I’ve come to realise that it came from moving abroad for studies into a very competitive, male-dominated environment, and also culturally very different from my home country.
I spent a lot of time moulding myself into what I thought was just right - the girl with extra food in her office, good listener, kind, but also smart and competent, but never proud of her smartness and competence, and also not scared to be vulnerable, but not so vulnerable it pressure on anyone else, blah blah! And then just couldn’t understand why men didn’t appreciate how perfect I was!
And honestly, I was just fine-tuning myself and my reactions to suit other people all the time, which can make you very rigid - subconsciously, you want other people to make the same effort for you. And then you’re not easy in your skin, and not accepting of others.
So I think you are probably a great guys, just - you don’t need to prove it all the time :-) And honestly, most people are not naturally aggressive and are creative - I would go so far as to say all people, all genders. The few that appear that way are probably battling some kind of pain. So to paraphrase other Polly advice - just be kind to yourself, allow your own needs and those of others!
Sorry about the long comment, but past me really relates to you. Also, if some of your fear is driven by a sense of “now or never” for finding the right person - don’t worry, it’ll work out!
this is such a masterclass in support, pushback, and gooooood shit.
Hey bro!
You could be this guy I dated briefly. He would have described himself in similar terms. He was in his 50s, and I'm not sure he's specifically aware he's neurodivergent, but everything else tracks. Kind, vulnerable, good job, lots of friends, takes care of people, including his aging aunt and mother. Childhood trauma. Old-school hacker.
Our first date was phenomenal. He took me to a restaurant where he knew the owners, and asked them to bring out some fabulous dish which wasn't on the menu. He pulled out a bottle of organic wine which was made by friends of his. He asked me intelligent questions and listened. He took me home, gave me the boxed-up leftovers and a hug, and left.
Hallelujah!! A unicorn!
So what happened?
As I learned subsequently, there is a vast gulf between learning to feel one's feelings, and knowing how to regulate them. It's not possible to be a good and present partner to another person if you can't do BOTH.
What happened was, his aunt died. She was 92. She had severe dementia and had been declining physically for a decade. He loved his aunt and took fabulous attentive care of her for all that time.
His response to her death was as extreme as if it had been totally unexpected. He spiraled into a chaotic grief state which alarmed me. He had a history of depression, and a crash seemed imminent.
I asked him what he was doing to regulate. As in eating regularly, sleeping, seeing friends, seeing a therapist. I had just gotten out of a relationship with a man who had no room for both his feelings and mine, and I was not going to walk that path again.
He became extremely defensive and argued that he was "not my ex." He defended and defended and defended. He wouldn't let it go. For days.
He argued, Bro, in much the way you're doing here. Not knowing when it's time to take in what someone says, let them have their own feelings, and move on.
That was all I needed to know. Because what I was asking, in effect, was, "can you regulate your own feelings, in real time, well enough to be responsive to mine?"
And the answer was no.
Ok sorry but I can't tear myself away from this -- the one question I wish I had just asked Bro from the start is this: if a magical omniscient being presented itself in front of you and told you that the reason things didn't work out with women/men you've dated was actually NOT due to society/culture/expectations of men/their upbringing/past experiences and instead had to do with you, how would you feel? And if you had to guess, what would those reasons be?
When people break up with me, I usually try to get a good sense for why (and if I can't get a straight answer, I think about moments of tension in the relationship and what I might have done to cause them). You could say I look for reasons to blame myself and that isn't the healthiest behavior, BUT it has helped me understand what people I like value, where my (many!) flaws are, and what kinds of people I should probably steer clear of in the future.
I know you don't want to talk about your dating life anymore, and no need to respond to this. But I have a few friends whom I adore but also can see how they might be difficult to date quite clearly -- and yet, when they get broken up with, it is always the other person's fault/timing/anything but turning inward and reflecting.
Part of the whole deal with being a member of an oppressor class is that the oppressed have the right to talk shit about you. It may seem unfair. As a white person, I don't love when POC say [insert negative generalization about white people here] because I'm an individual, how can you make this generalization without thinking about meeee (please exempt me from this, because i'm better??) But part of growth is learning not to take things like that personally. Or, do take them personally, if you must. But then you have to sit with it and feel the pain of it without getting overwhelmed and lashing out.
I’m not sure if this is allowed, but I am the writer of this letter. I wanted to respond publicly since you responded publicly. It seems unfair for only one of us to hide in anonymity, especially about a topic like this. Plus someone challenged me today to take frightening leaps ;-)
First, thank you for the incredibly thoughtful reply. Today, this letter is – as you say – exactly what I needed when I needed it. I had to clear my tears before composing this. Your ability to understand people from brief blocks of black-and-white prose is remarkable. Your advice is something I will cherish for a long time.
There may be other things that occur to me later, but I wanted to respond to a few things:
1. The point you raise about my insinuation that it’s the women who can’t see me and not anything wrong me. The spirit of this criticism is well-taken, and is something I thought about as I wrote the letter.
That said, I still oversimplified in my statement of the problem, ironically in a letter asking you to be less oversimplified…oof. I'm sorry for that. I certainly don’t think I’m perfect, and I don’t at all think these women are wrong to be highly skeptical.
I think you un-simplified my oversimplified explanation very well, so thank you for that.
I loved Heather’s response, but this line stood out for me: you’re ”hard to see clearly when you’re not leaping enough.” I’d love to hear more about this - what makes us hard to see when we’re not leaping enough? (Speaking as someone who’s been avoiding leaping for a while)
related-- a lot of things about man-woman relationships were clarified for me when I read the novel Detransition, Baby by Torrey Peters. in the book, the characters are very aware of how their genders are material to their relationships, and how certain relationship dynamics confirm or challenge the storytelling of one's gender (ex: one trans woman character seeks out toxic relationships with cis men bc she correctly identifies that as part of how femininity is constructed in our culture).
I'm wondering if these women "run away" from you because part of their storytelling about what it means to be a woman has to do with putting up with masculine bullshit, whether they'll admit it or not. in which case, I'm sorry! these women just haven't untaught themselves that aspect of relationships yet.
Women who don’t trust men got that way by being hurt, badly, multiple times, by men. And told that it was their fault. Read Am I The Asshole on Reddit to see story after story of a woman accepting abuse and still wondering if she is at fault.
Trying to be a good man sounds like an unquestionably good thing. But trying to look like a good anything can veer off into people-pleasing very easily. What’s wrong with people-pleasing is that it comes from a desire to appear a certain way to get a certain outcome (to get something good or to avoid something bad). So it is not authentic. It treats the other person as an object to extract things from, in a way.
It’s hard not to people-please if you grew up in a dysfunctional family. It feels vulnerable and dangerous. You almost have to people-please to succeed at work, especially in desirable fields. You risk criticism and misunderstanding if you step off the people-pleasing train. Most people need support to do it, like from a 12 step group where this is talked about and where authenticity is valued over outward success.
You have to give up the “do this to get that” thinking, which I have come to think of as the true “original sin.”
I could be wrong, but this is what I see as the block that might be getting in the way of authentic and lasting connection.
My response to the letter is that maybe the people you are dating don't actually want what you are selling, despite the fact they say they want it. This kind of goes back to Heather's point about our cultural fondness for strength.
I’m super curious what specifically these women have communicated to LW and what routines have led to the disappearances/agitation. Not that it’s my business, but it’s pretty rare to have that consistent level of insight into what exactly is tanking every relationship! Especially in that starting-out phase.
So, so good, Heather.
To the letter writer, as Dan Savage says, all romantic relationships fail until one doesn't (or something like that).
Dear BRO,
Quality men, like quality women, often find that being all you are dramatically shrinks your dating pool. Be patient. Ultimately it pays off.
I question whether negative or stereotypical portrayals of men or women are of import to people with loving hearts. You’re not “that guy” and the right woman for you will see through any societal debris. That Polly (HH) has called out “that guy” on occasion when specifically called for is not an attack on you or other great men that I can see.